As anyone in recovery from alcohol or drug addiction can attest, life's challenges don't magically disappear once you get clean and sober. But you can learn to respond to life's difficulties in healthier ways by developing emotional sobriety. Listen in as psychologist and author Allen Berger discusses the how-to of emotional sobriety with host William C. Moyers: What emotional sobriety is, why it's so important to "feel your feelings" and how to more fully embrace the ebb and flow of life. Listen or read the transcript of part one on Acknowledging the Ongoing Struggle and part two on Listening to Your Inner Dialogue. Part One Read the transcript below or listen and subscribe on iTunes or Google Play, or watch on YouTube. Part Two Read the transcript below or listen and subscribe on iTunes or Google Play, or watch on YouTube. Part One: Acknowledging the Ongoing Struggle 0:00:14 William Moyers Hello and welcome to Let's Talk, a series of podcasts produced by the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation on issues related to substance use, prevention, research, treatment and recovery form addiction to alcohol and other drugs. My name is William Moyers, I'm your host and I've been with the organization for 23 years. But before that, I was a patient in 1989 and again in 1991. And so my story is a shining example not only of the power of addiction but also the promise and the possibility of recovery. Remember, all you need to do is ask for help. Treatment works and recovery is possible. Our guest today is Dr. Allen Berger—welcome back, Allen. 0:00:59 Dr. Allen Berger Thank you, William. 0:01:01 William Moyers You are, I would think the, in my own life, the guru of emotional sobriety. I have taken a lot of what you’ve shared and what you have written about over the years and applied it to my own life. Tell me how emotional sobriety applies to your own life. 0:01:17 Dr. Allen Berger Well, look it's made a huge difference in my own personal recovery. I, you know, I love how you start out by talking about recovery is possible because I think of recovery as a discovery of new possibilities. And that discovery of new possibilities includes my relationship with my problem, my relationship with myself and my relationship with others. So there's three areas that are so important. And we're gonna talk about today is about this addict self-thing and the idea of a population of selves. We're gonna focus in on our relationship with our problem and our relationship with ourselves to help people understand how in recovery you can shift your perspectives and start to look at things in a very different way. So one way we could talk about emotional sobriety is a shift in your perspective. What we say is that when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Right? 0:02:18 William Moyers [chuckles] Sure. Yes. 0:02:19 Dr. Allen Berger It's an interesting way of thinking about it. But that's what we're gonna be talking about today. 0:02:24 William Moyers So you mean what we're talking about isn't about stopping the use of substances? 0:02:28 Dr. Allen Berger Oh, well listen, we know how important that is, right? 0:02:31 William Moyers Right. 0:02:31 Dr. Allen Berger Is that we gotta—we've got to be able to put the plug in the jug so to speak. And not be into our addictive behavior. And look that segues perfectly in the—into what I wanted us to talk about. That I wanted to share with you today, is this idea that we’re not just one self. Now when I say that to people, they, their first response is so you're saying I'm Sybil (?). [laughs] Well maybe, that's right, split personality, or multiple personality. Right? That kind of thing. Well, the truth is, we're all—we all have multiple personalities. It becomes an issue if you're dissociated from those other parts of you. But most of us aren't. And so you've heard it in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics—we talk about the committee. And what's the committee? Well it's all these different voices in our head that are in conflict and struggling. Right? So, the way that we define mental health and this is important to take a minute to talk about. See mental health is the coordination of all that you are. So it means taking those two parts of you that let's say are in conflict. So let's say I’m working with someone who wants to get out of their marriage and they're really struggling with the conflict. There's one part of them that says I'm done with this relationship, I don't wanna be here anymore. And another part of them saying I'm—I don't wanna leave this relationship, we have kids, I don't wanna leave at this particular point in time. So what does a person do with that internal conflict? 0:04:03 Dr. Allen Berger [continued] Well, the technique that I use to deal with that is it's called externalizing the conflict. I have them actually play those different parts to get into a dialogue. So that, 'cause once we externalize that issue, we get clarity on it. We can start to look at it in a different way and to deal with it. So we have all these parts. So, when you were growing up and I was growing up, maybe a part of you that developed was to say look, I have to be really smart and bright. I need to really master everything that I put my hands on, right? I've gotta be on top of it. That was my solution early in life. I had to—I felt like I had to be number one in everything I did. It was so funny when I was in early recovery I was with my friend Bill and we were—we got bicycles, we couldn't afford cars at that point, we were still at Kaneohe Marine Corps Air Station, we're driving, riding our bikes to meetings, right? And he and one time we were in group therapy together and he looks at me and he says, 'Why is it that you need to ride in front of me all the time?' Oh boy, right at that moment I got it! [snaps fingers] See I have to be number one to be okay. That was—that was an idea I had of myself. Well it was that part of me that felt like I had to be number one. There was another part of me that felt like I'm ignorant and stupid, how can I be number one if somebody finds us out? Oh my god. I'm ashamed, they're gonna know who I am it's like the Wizard of Oz things, right? God, don't pull that curtain back, please, please! Well, getting all these parts to work together is a challenge. Now, you and I know that there's a ton of research being done on addiction as a brain problem, right? 0:05:38 William Moyers Right. It has an origins in the brain, right? 0:05:41 Dr. Allen Berger It does. And we know that addiction hijacks the brain. It's so clear, the work that's being done at the National Institute of Drug Addiction is just—Dr. Volkow, her work has just been phenomenal. And we now start to see—we used to think it was just the reward center, the pleasure center of the brain, that was involved. But her work has showed that the whole brain gets hijacked. So your judgment gets hijacked, your motivation gets hijacked, your per—perception gets hijacked. So everything now supports the changes that are taking place in the brain. One thing we haven't talked about though is your personality gets hijacked. Now, you start to develop an addict self. Because the brain can't interact with the world. The personality—your personality interacts with the world. Like me, the part of me that says I have to be number one, well now I develop this whole persona that I'm on top of everything, I know everything, I'm Mr. Know-It-All, that kind of thing, right? Well, as our addiction starts to unfold, now this addict self starts to come into being. And it starts eventually takes over our life. 0:06:41 William Moyers Is that true even after the substance has been put down? Or how does that—what happens there? 0:06:57 Dr. Allen Berger Great question. Does that continue? Yes. Once that addict self has taken residence in your personality, it's always gonna have a role. 0:07:04 William Moyers Even if you're not using the substance? 0:07:05 Dr. Allen Berger Even if you're not using. It is sitting there. 0:07:07 William Moyers That's interesting. Yeah. 0:07:08 Dr. Allen Berger It is sitting there. What—you've heard people say, you know, while you’re going to meetings, your addict self is outside doing push-ups. Right? So what does it mean? That part of me still exists. And at any point in time, if I don't stay aware of that, that part of me can take over. And what do we call it the stinkin' thinkin' comes back, right? So this is what makes it so important that recovery is right. Managing our ongoing vulnerability to our addiction the rest of our life. I love the way that—that—who is the white papers? 0:07:43 William Moyers Oh, William White, right. 0:07:44 Dr. Allen Berger William White. I love the way William White talks about that, right? He says that—that the definition of recovery is—is managing our ongoing vulnerability. Well that means I have to not only manage that addict self that's inside of me with the help of others, but I need to get to know it very, very well. 0:08:05 William Moyers Ahhh. Is that why then the Twelve Steps are so applicable to an addict's life beyond that first step when they put down the substance? 0:08:14 Dr. Allen Berger Oh, so applicable. 'Cause look what starts to happen as, so first of all, that first step says I’m powerless. This part of me has taken over and I don't know how to, you know, dethrone this other part of me, right? First step says and it's called a paradoxical theory of change. As soon as I own what I'm doing, I've got a new possibility. If I say I’m powerless, now I can discover power. So that's so important. To start to—to break our dependence on that part of us, right? Allowing that point to have the authority it does. Well the other step says now, step two comes along, says well there's hope, right? Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Step three comes along and says make a commitment now to your recovery. Those three steps set the foundation that I need to become aware of that part of me. And what it's been doing in my life and learn how to deal with that in a very different way. So step four comes along and says now, take a more a fearless, searching, moral, you know, moral inventory or something. So that step comes along and it starts to help us see what we've become. What has happened since I've let that addict self take over my life. And now we start to get into a vision of what we can be. Because we see, this is who I became. But there's a new possibility that you just talked about. What can I be? What are the possibilities for me in my life? Well there's no possibilities until I completely learn how to deal with that other part of myself. 0:09:43 William Moyers It sounds though like emotional sobriety as you have taught it, and as you have written about it in your books, and as you've done in your lectures, it sounds to me like emotional sobriety would be as good for the family member as it would be for the addict or the alcoholic. 0:09:59 Dr. Allen Berger Well, there's no question about it. See the freedom that we see in emotional sobriety like we talked about in the last podcast is also any family member can discover that freedom. And they can be okay no matter what's happening with their—with their shun (stumbles), with their daughter, with their husband, with their wife. They can find a way to deal with that and still be okay. Even though they may be in pain. 'Cause look, we're not gonna be okay if someone we care about is suffering. Right? That would be denying our humanity. 0:10:33 Dr. Allen Berger [continued] Now, this addict self becomes very important because a family member can get some relief from the pain they're feeling by saying look, that's the addict talking to me, not my son. 0:10:46 William Moyers Yes. [nodding] 0:10:46 Dr. Allen Berger That's the part, that's the addiction that has taken over my son. I'll give you a great example of this— 0:10:52 William Moyers Please. 0:10:52 Dr. Allen Berger —with a client that I just worked with recently. She's in recovery, she brought her mom who's in recovery and she just couldn't forgive her mom. When she grew up, her mom's addiction was in, I mean, full force, right? I mean, she was acting out, strangers at the house, this young lady never felt safe and she's now got about five years from her addiction to heroin. And she brought her mom into one of these demonstrations. I have a two-year program in Gestalt therapy. And she brings her mom in and she goes you know I wanna talk to you about what went on but it's so hard because I know you're trying so hard right now. So, I came up with this intervention. And it was really clever. I said I want you to come over and sit next to your mom. Because both you and your mom have a lot to say to her addiction. And they both now started to confront the mother's addiction as allies. The daughter didn't wanna do it before because she didn't wanna make her mom feel bad about herself. But now, they were sittin' next to each other. I'll never forgive you for, and then the mother would say, I'll never forgive you for, or how you know you made me neglect my daughter. And then the daughter would say I'll never forgive you for how you made my mother neglect me! [Moyers chuckles] It was amazing! At the freedom that they both got at that moment from having that dialogue. 0:12:12 William Moyers What do you tell people in recovery or family members who need to recover who—who have put down the substance or have not experienced a substance in their lives for a number of years but are still struggling with the emotional sobriety piece? 0:12:26 Dr. Allen Berger Well you know, the big thing that I try to share with people about this is that there's a big difference between trust and faith. It may be hard to trust someone with an addiction until they've really grown. I mean and really worked on the issues that they need to. As well as it may be hard for a family member to trust themselves— 0:12:45 William Moyers Of course. Right. 0:12:46 Dr. Allen Berger —and dealing with their own anxiety. And not trying to control and all those other things. But what we can all have that is not dependent on any of that is faith. I can have faith that there's something in you that's gonna grow you to be what you can be. There's something in me that's gonna grow me to be what I can be. And if I can speak to that part of you, now we can have a very different dialogue. 0:13:13 Dr. Allen Berger [continued] And so let's apply this to the addict self thing. So, let's say my son is struggling. You know? If I was sittin' with him, I might put a chair over there and say you know, son, I want you to keep your addict self over there for a minute. 'Cause I wanna talk to you. I miss you. You've let that part of you take over yourself. And I really miss you. I know that you don’t agree with what you’re doing all the time. I can see it in your eyes when we talk. That you struggle with that part but you don't know what to do to deal with it yet. But I have faith if you hang in here, son, you can do it. 0:13:48 William Moyers Wow. 0:13:49 Dr. Allen Berger Now, do you get that powerful that is? 0:13:51 William Moyers Oh, yeah, you can do it. Yeah. Yes. 0:13:52 Dr. Allen Berger See what I mean? And to separate them out and say, you're not only that part. You weren't our only "your addict" self. There was another part of you that was inside of you before the addiction developed. And that's the part of you that we can bring to bear to help us now find our way out of that craziness that addiction creates. 0:14:14 William Moyers And there is a way out. 0:14:15 Dr. Allen Berger There is a way out. But the first thing is, and we can get into this more, I'll show you how that people can apply this, right? Therapists, doctors, family members, can apply this to deal with a family member that's struggling. Or a patient that's struggling with this problem. 0:14:33 William Moyers Well we've save that exciting conclusion to our next podcast. In the meantime, Dr. Allen Berger, thank you for bringing your experience, strength and hope to our audience today. And thank you to our audience for joining us for another edition of Let's Talk, a series of podcasts on the issues that really matter to the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation and matter to you. On behalf of our executive producer Lisa Stangl, I'm William Moyers, thanks for joining us and we’ll see you again on Let's Talk. Part Two: Listening to Your Inner Dialogue 0:00:15 William Moyers Hello and welcome to Let's Talk, a series of podcasts produced by the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation on issues related to substance use, prevention, research, treatment and recovery from addiction to alcohol or other drugs. I'm your host, William Moyers and I've been with the organization for 23 years. But before that, I was a patient at Hazelden in 1989 and I liked it so much that I went back in 1991 in part because I was not taking care of my emotional sobriety. We've been talking with Dr. Allen Berger about emotional sobriety and it's important role in the journey of recovery so it's good to have you back again. 0:00:55 Dr. Allen Berger Well, thank you, William. 0:00:57 William Moyers And today you wanted to put me through an exercise that had something to do with the population of selves. Could you explain that a little bit? 0:01:04 Dr. Allen Berger Well, look, last podcast we talked about how each of us is comprised of a lot of different selfs, right? So we have a side of us that's thoughtful, another side that's reactive and impulsive. We have a generous—side that's generous, another side that's stingy, all that. Well, in recovery what happens is—is that it's very important for the person in recovery to understand their addict self. And that addict self starts to grow as the brain changes. You see that part of us makes what's wrong seem right and what's right seem wrong. It's very interesting. It's called gaslighting and we talk about how well you know the addict can gaslight or the addict can gaslight people in their lives. But it starts with us gaslighting ourselves. We turn right into wrong and wrong into right. See that's what we do. And that's what the—that's the role of the addict self. It has to make us consonant with what we're doing. Because if not, we're always in conflict over it. And we still are. That conflicts gets subdued though because the more and more that—that addict self takes over, and now has the final authority in our personality, at that point the rest of us is eclipsed. You don't even know that there's another part of you. 0:02:22 William Moyers And the addict self can still exist even when the person, say myself, has put down the substance. 0:02:27 Dr. Allen Berger Yes. Look, let's do an experiment to show how that happens. 0:02:29 William Moyers Okay. All right. I'm game, I think. 0:02:32 Dr. Allen Berger So I'm gonna step over here a minute. Let me set up the exercise real quick. So what you're gonna do is we're gonna divide you into two parts right now. All right? So, over here is your addict self. 0:02:43 William Moyers In the empty chair is the addict self. Okay. 0:02:44 Dr. Allen Berger In the empty chelf [stumbles] is your addict self. Over here is your recovery self. [moves over to William sitting in chair] 0:02:47 William Moyers While I'm sitting in this chair. 0:02:46 Dr. Allen Berger This is the part of you that has to deal with this part, not has to, but deals with this part, on a daily basis, right? 0:02:54 William Moyers All right. 0:02:55 Dr. Allen Berger So let's just start with what would you like to say to this part of yourself? From the recovery self? What do you wanna say to you— 0:03:00 William Moyers From my recovery self to the addict self, I wanna tell the addict self that I know that addiction is cunning, baffling— 0:03:06 Dr. Allen Berger I know that you're cunning and baffling. 0:03:07 William Moyers [points to empty chair] That you, addiction— 0:03:08 Dr. Allen Berger There you go. 0:03:09 William Moyers —are cunning, baffling, powerful and patient. You wait. 0:03:12 Dr. Allen Berger Yes. 0:03:13 William Moyers Okay. 0:03:14 Dr. Allen Berger Good, now change, now change over here. Now you're moving over to the—you're gonna sit in the addict self— 0:03:18 William Moyers Okay, so now I'm sitting in the addict's, yeah. 0:03:20 Dr. Allen Berger Now what does the addict wanna say back to William? 0:03:23 William Moyers You're right. 0:03:26 Dr. Allen Berger I am sitting here. Say it. [laughs] 0:03:26 William Moyers I am sitting here and I'm waiting for that moment when it's not only cunning, baffling and powerful, but also very patient in your life. 0:03:34 Dr. Allen Berger So I'm waiting for that moment—finish that. I'm waiting for that moment when you…. 0:03:38 William Moyers Forget that I'm cunning, baffling , powerful and patient. 0:03:40 Dr. Allen Berger Ahhh. Yes. See? 0:03:43 William Moyers And see I've been in recovery for 24 years. 0:03:46 Dr. Allen Berger It's still there! See that's our point. Right? So now come back over to recovery self. 0:03:50 William Moyers [moves back over to first chair] So I'm sitting in the recovery self. 0:03:51 Dr. Allen Berger So you're moving back over to the other side. 0:03:52 William Moyers By the way and I like sitting in this side better. [grins] 0:03:54 Dr. Allen Berger Of course. [laughs] The energy's different. See that's the point of this. These are really different selves inside of us. So now, now this part says well, I'm waiting, now what do you wanna say back? 0:04:06 William Moyers Well I know that you are cunning, baffling, powerful and patient, but I value my recovery more than I value my addiction. 0:04:15 Dr. Allen Berger So see this is the critical—this is kind of the recovery decision that you've just shown us right now, right? This is that moment where you're saying I'm gonna disobey you. No matter what you tell me. I'm no longer gonna go down that path. Because I'm more grounded here and I know what I want over here in my life. And you're not a part of that for me. 0:04:39 William Moyers Well and I value my recovery. 0:04:43 Dr. Allen Berger That's the important—see so that's so—that you're valuing it is the grounding part in it. 0:04:48 William Moyers Okay. 0:04:49 Dr. Allen Berger You got it? Okay so come back, let's see what this side says, you're moving chairs again to the other side. 0:04:52 William Moyers I'm getting back in the addict chair and I don't like it over here. 0:04:56 Dr. Allen Berger So, that's so interesting. So now what does the addict say back to him? He says, well look, I know no matter what, you're gonna be patient and stuff, but I'm valuing my recovery and I'm not—I'm not going along with you anymore. 0:05:08 William Moyers And as your addiction I hear you but I'm still there. I'm still waiting. I'm still going to be in your shadow or I'm going to be your shadow for the rest of your life. 0:05:20 Dr. Allen Berger Right on. Right on. See, so that's the important thing for us. No matter what path somebody's taken to their recovery, we want our clients, our patients, if you got a family member that's struggling, we want them to understand this. That this is a part of them for the rest of their life. I just thought of an interesting thing to do. Let's change this a little bit. Now let's go back. How many years you been in recovery now? 0:05:45 William Moyers I have been committed to recovery since the morning of October 12th of 1994. 0:05:49 Dr. Allen Berger '94. Let's go to 1992. Now, just try and go back to 1992. Be the addict self in 1992. What do you wanna say to William at that point? Tell him what you're doing to his life. 0:06:02 William Moyers I'm comin' back for you again. Because at that point I was dry. 0:06:06 Dr. Allen Berger Okay, so tell him. I'm comin' back. 0:06:07 William Moyers I'm comin' back for you again. And I'm gonna get you in 1994. 0:06:10 Dr. Allen Berger Right. Yeah. There. I'm startin' to come back. See. So see even at that point, if you were in dialogue, and somebody got you on a dialogue about this, who knows what could have happened? You might have been able to see that this guy was starting to say. So this is the importance of this dialogue in relapse prevention. You see I talk about a recovery checkup. 0:06:32 William Moyers Yes. 0:06:32 Dr. Allen Berger Which is going to see somebody who does this work and have them help you have a dialogue with your addict self. And then you might understand the position you're in and you could become aware. 'Cause you can feel the energy over here. 0:06:45 William Moyers Yes. Without a doubt. 0:06:45 Dr. Allen Berger When you're over here. Okay so come on back over here and I'm gonna join you back around here. 0:06:50 William Moyers I'm not and I'm not gonna see you as the—as my addiction. Just so you know that. Even though you're sitting in that chair. 0:06:55 Dr. Allen Berger Let me clean him off of here. [wipes off chair, laughs] 0:06:57 William Moyers That's the psychodrama of the piece, right? You clean it off. Okay. 0:06:58 Dr. Allen Berger I cleaned off the energy. Right. 0:07:00 William Moyers Okay. Right. I like that. 0:07:02 Dr. Allen Berger Right. We cleaned off the energy. But you see how—how distinct those selves are. 0:07:06 William Moyers Well it's true. I mean look I'm not in denial about the fact that I'm an addict and an alcoholic. But when I take that role and play it out like we just did I can sense it more. And the dichotomy between my recovery self and my addict self is obvious. 0:07:22 Dr. Allen Berger Yeah. So early on, when I engage a patient in this, right, and when they come to see me for therapy and they're just starting recovery. You know what this part says? You know go ahead, no matter what you do I'm still here you're not gonna get rid of me. 'Cause the first thing that the recovery self says, I want you out of my life! That doesn't work. 0:07:41 William Moyers Right. 0:07:43 Dr. Allen Berger See when we resist something, it persists. That's the important thing here. And so this when we start to accept that that's a part of me, I can now discover new ways of dealing with it. And look this gives a tip to those of you that are watching that are family members, professionals and therapists. Is to understand that the addict self is just a part of that person. So sometimes if I'm sitting there and I'm engaged with something and he's saying yeah this recovery stuff is nonsense, da-da-da-da, what I'll say to him is, or her, is there any part of you that disagrees with that part of you? Because I wanna bring up the voice that's not being heard. Into their consciousness, you see? 0:08:27 William Moyers Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. 0:08:28 Dr. Allen Berger You see how important that is? And see, and anybody can do—use this. You know, if you're a medical doctor and you're treating somebody and it's medically-assisted treatment, you can—you can listen to that person and say look, which part of you am I talking to right now? Am I talking to your addict that's trying to get med—more medication from me? Or am I talking to the part of you that wants to be in recovery? A family member can separate this out. And we talked about it in the last podcast of how I helped that young lady in recovery deal with some of the feelings she had towards her mother's addiction. Separating this out is important because we can see that our addiction is just a part of us, it's not all of us. And that is what makes recovery possible. 0:09:12 William Moyers So what are the takeaways? I mean if this is a series of podcasts that we do at Hazelden Betty Ford, you have participated in four of these now. 0:09:18 Dr. Allen Berger Yes. 0:09:21 William Moyers Assuming that our listeners or our viewers have, you know, paid attention to each o this four podcasts, what is it you hope to leave people with? 0:09:30 Dr. Allen Berger Well, I hope to leave people with these vision of what emotional sobriety is. And that is freedom. 0:09:36 William Moyers Freedom. 0:09:37 Dr. Allen Berger Total freedom. And that your well-being does not depend on what's happening in your life, it's dependent on your experience to what's happening. And that emotional sobriety is about changing the way you look at your problem. See I no longer feel ashamed of the fact that I'm an addict. I embrace that now as a part of my life. I know that that was a part of me saying Allen, something's wrong, we need some help. I couldn't say that I didn't have the maturity to be able to do that. But it was a part of me sayin' that we're in trouble. And my job was to take that trouble and to see what it was telling me. How to decode it, if you will, or digest it, right? 0:10:19 William Moyers Sure. 0:10:22 Dr. Allen Berger And to grow myself with it. So that's the other thing. Trouble doesn't mean something's wrong. Trouble is an invitation to take that next step in your development, in your maturity. And so, I hope we leave people with some hope, right? That there is so much more to this journey of recovery than sometimes we see, than sometimes people hear in the rooms, or if they're goin' down another path that the possibilities here are endless for us to find a new way of bein' related to our problems, a new relationship with ourselves, and a new relationship with those people we love and care about. 0:11:01 William Moyers And the point is, and you've been doing this for 47 years, you talked about your recovery of 47 years I've been at it a long time too is that even all these decades later, we're still not doing it perfectly. 0:11:11 Dr. Allen Berger That's right. I love that. That's right. It's not about doing it perfectly. It's about paying attention to our experience and using our awareness to digest that experience and to grow ourselves with it. 0:11:23 William Moyers So where do people who might have watched or listened to this podcast, where do they get more insight, your insight? And where do they find those resources? 0:11:31 Dr. Allen Berger Well, Hazelden has published four books that I've written. Twelve Stupid Things that Mess Up Recovery, Twelve Smart Things To Do When the Booze and Drugs are Gone. That second book is about specifically about emotional sobriety. Another book on the Twelve Hidden Rewards of Making Amends. And the latest one, Twelve More Stupid Things. Next year, hopefully, we're coming out with Twelve Core Concepts of Emotional Sobriety so that's one source. If they sign up on my website, www.abphd.com, I'm oftentimes giving one-day workshops in California, I've had people come out there from Texas, Arizona, and stuff, to attend these days. They're very, very, very, very informative. And—and people are you know I had somebody write me and I know you get people writing you all the time. I had somebody write me and thank me, he says, 'Thank you for introducing me to the Bill Wilson that I needed to find.' Think about that for a minute. 'Cause that—this is about freedom. 0:12:32 William Moyers Yeah and it's also about our own humanness, too. 0:12:35 Dr. Allen Berger That's right. 0:12:35 William Moyers I mean Bill Wilson was as flawed as a human being in recovery as there could have been. 0:12:39 Dr. Allen Berger Could be. I tell people all the time William I've become so much smarter now that I know I'm stupid. [laughs heartily] I mean now, it's— 0:12:46 William Moyers Yeah. No. 0:12:45 Dr. Allen Berger —I say it kiddingly but it's so true. I don't—I don't worry about that anymore. I know there's a part of me that's dumb at times. I do stupid things. But there's another part of me that's quite bright, too, and intelligent. 0:12:57 William Moyers Well and I think the point and maybe we'll leave our viewers and listeners with this today that point is that we all need to be and we are still teachable. No matter whether we've been at this 30 days or 47 years, right? 0:13:14 Dr. Allen Berger Yes, that's such an important part. See that's where the humility comes in. Is that I remain open to learning what I can learn about myself, how to show up in life in the way that I wanna show up. See, I define emotional sobriety is when I let the best in me run the show. And when the best of me is running the show, I'm gonna own a mistake, I'm gonna make amends if I hurt somebody. I'm gonna learn from my experience 'cause that's what it's about. It's not about bein' right. It's not about bein' perfect. It's about really growing ourselves and we can do that all the time. 0:13:49 William Moyers Dr. Allen Berger, thank you for your expertise, thank you for your passion, and most of all, thanks for bringing to our viewers and our listeners today that sense of humility that you have and that is so essential to our abilities to remain teachable. 0:14:04 Dr. Allen Berger Well thank you. Thank you for your willingness to do the chair work today. 0:14:09 William Moyers Well, I'm learning too, so. 0:14:11 Dr. Allen Berger [chuckles] That's good. 0:14:11 William Moyers Thanks so much to you all our viewers and our listeners for tuning in. These podcasts have become a really extraordinary opportunity for Hazelden Betty Ford to carry the message about these issues out into the world of the Internet, into the world that you live in, the world that you are recovering in. On behalf of our executive producer Lisa Stangl, I'm William Moyers and we wanna thank you for joining us today. And stay tuned for more Let's Talk podcasts.